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Hi Doctor.
After reading many of your posts and many conversations with friends, I’m starting to think that dating is just too difficult for all people, for a very different set of reasons for each person. It seems like people of all genders have trouble with dating, because of the way dating works in our culture and I’m not sure I understand why.
For one thing, I don’t understand why it has to be a guy’s job to ask a woman out if women don’t enjoy getting male attention most of the time. If women don’t like male attention, then doesn’t it make more sense for women to be the ones to pursue men, and not the other way around? I’m not saying that women never ask men out, but if I were to go out to an event to meet people, for example, as the guy I’m the one who’s expected to “make the first move” and initiate everything; it would be unreasonable to just show up somewhere, not talk to anyone, and expect a woman to just start talking to and flirting with me. For females, however, this happens all the time. I think this is also why there are way more men than women on dating apps, women are turned off at all the unwanted attention.
Men seem to have the opposite problem. When women get too much attention, men don’t seem to get enough. I think this creates a disconnect where men think they would enjoy getting excessive female attention, even if that’s not the case. This disconnect, I think, is one reason men can sometimes go for more “aggressive” tactics to get women; in their minds, they would love getting this attention, so they figure they’re not doing anything wrong. I also think this all results in men being more prone to believing bullshit they pick up online, things such as “the six-sixes” or that “women only date Chads” etc. Guys learn that stuff when they go online to look for answers for why they never get attention from the opposite gender.
My question, I guess is, why does our society have to work this way? Nobody likes this current system, so why are we not changing it? I think we can all agree that it would be better for everyone if it was just as easy for all genders to find someone to date, and there were no “double-standards” or different expectations placed on different genders.
My next question is how am I supposed to date if this is how dating works in our society? I think that, as a guy, I’m the one taking a bigger risk in pursuing a woman than the woman is in pursuing me. If a female friend, for example, were to pursue me and I wasn’t interested I would probably take it as a compliment, since I so rarely get that kind of attention. However, if I pursue a female friend who’s not interested in me, I run the risk of becoming yet another guy that’s only interested in her for dating, and this may ruin the friendship between the two of us. I know this could be part of that “disconnect” I mentioned earlier.
Regards
Looking for Answers
You know, your second to last paragraph reminds me of an XKCD comic. Specifically, this one:
What you’re asking can be boiled down to “because SOCIETY”, with jazz-hands and music stings. But boiling it down that simplistically is doing a disservice to the complicated and twisted knot of multiple different threads that all come together to create a situation that makes a lot of people miserable.
People are, in fact, really fucking complicated. As is society. And those complications are born out of a lot of different factors all coming together.
So, you’re not wrong that dating is pretty frustrating for… well, pretty much everyone right now. But it’s a situation that defies simplistic answers because what you’re seeing is the intersection of tradition, changing social mores, the decay of social media under capitalism (what Cory Doctorow calls “enshitification” and what I call “fuckin’ tech bros”), grifters who prey on social dissatisfaction and a whole lotta folks who just don’t want to admit what the real issue is.
So let’s roll it from the top, shall we?
First, why do men have to make the first move, especially if women don’t like male attention? Well, this starts off with the false assumption that women don’t like male attention. It’s not the attention that’s the problem. What they complain about is unwanted attention – something that tends to spur folks to send that whole “here’s how it works” comic or the “sexual harassment seminar” SNL sketch that says the answer is “be attractive, don’t be unattractive”.
The issue at hand isn’t the relative attractiveness of the person. The issue is that, for the folks who are on the receiving end of this attraction, it’s less about the hotness of the person giving them attraction and far more about that person not giving a shit what the woman wants.
There is a significant difference between someone who says “hey, is that a good book?” and who goes away when he gets the not-interested signal and the guy who plops himself down next to her or across from her and insists on trying to push through her disinterest. And men, especially are still told that you should push through that initial disinterest because that’s how “alphas” or “real men” or whatever other label you want to apply do it.
The people who are receiving this attraction are being told that they should be grateful for it and accepting of it, regardless of whether they’re interested in the person, interested in receiving attention at all or whatever else they might be want. It doesn’t matter to the person giving the attention that the person receiving it may be busy or working, may be having a shitty day, has a partner, has no interest in sex and or romance… her wants and needs are treated as tertiary (at best) to the desire of the other person who wants her time.
And very often, if the person receiving that attention doesn’t skillfully thread the needle of turning them down without provoking or upsetting them, there’s a distinct chance that this encounter could turn ugly, even violent.
But to make matters worse, her disinterest is often framed as either something to be ignored or a sign to push even harder. Back when the pick-up community was surging, this disinterest was even gamified; people were told it was a “shit test” or her “bitch shield” and wasn’t legitimate. Her disinterest was a show, a performance, a way of seeing who the “real” men were vs. the average frustrated cucks.
So right off the bat, there’s a conflict between one person’s desires and agency and another’s, with women getting the short end of that particular stick.
Just as importantly, men are “expected” to do the initiating, partially because of tradition and gender roles (men are expected to be aggressive, dominant and leaders), but also partially because guys can get weird when gender roles are challenged. This weirdness can range from over assuming the woman’s interest (she has to want the “d” right now otherwise she’d never flout the social rules about making the first move!) to thinking that it’s a trick or a trap.
It’s very much a #MasculinitySoFragile situation. It becomes much more understandable when you consider how many things men are told they’re not supposed to do because it makes them girly or gay (which, in and of itself, is a gender role upheaval).
Compounding this – especially the “if women don’t like the attention, why aren’t they the ones initiating” question – is the ever-present and legitimate worry about danger. Women have more to fear from men, physically and socially, than men do from women. This isn’t just a matter of violence; it’s also the risk of sexually transmitted infections, pregnancy, social consequences for being sexual in ways that people disapprove of and so on. Cis men don’t need to worry about getting pregnant and, in a post-Roe society, also don’t need to worry about being forced to carry that child to term, with all the health risks, social and economic costs that come with it.
You also have fallen into a trap of assuming that women who want attention or who want guys to come talk to them are sitting around doing nothing. Women put in a lot of time and effort to be approachable – from makeup and styling to their behavior in the venue. It’s not treated as effort or work, in part because much happens before they even show up. Society, after all, has expectations that women are supposed to look and behave a certain way (see also: how women are treated if they show up without makeup and how guys don’t know how much makeup is involved in a “no makeup look”). However, it’s also because it’s not recognized as effort. But if you were to read advice for women, especially from women’s magazines, you could fill libraries with all the rules and behaviors women are expected to perform in order to get male attention. And you could find just as many women who are punished – directly and indirectly – for not behaving in just the “right” ways to get male attention.
And it’s worth nothing that women can and have done exactly what you said – went some place, didn’t interact with anyone and just minded their own business – and still recieved unwanted attention. It, again, comes because society still teaches men that women exist in public as something to be consumed, rather than an individual with agency and an internal life that doesn’t revolve around men. This is, once again, men ignoring her lack of demonstrated interest because their desire to get what they want from her overrides her desire to be left alone.
That same dynamic of “guys are the aggressor” follows us everywhere, including onto dating apps. But the same aggressive behavior, regardless of the other person’s interest, turns off women and enough of it makes them quit the apps in frustration. This helps contribute to the uneven split in gender ratios, which is then further exasperated by algorithmic sorting that affects who you do and don’t see, incentivizing increasingly aggressive and socially maladjusted behavior from guys who want to maximize their ability to match with the women they want.
It’s also worth noting that many guys don’t think that unwanted attention is bad… in part because they assume that the people who might give them attention would be attractive to them if the roles were reversed. In other words – they see it as the porn fantasy instead of the reality.
But not only would many of them flip their shit if a man – especially a very “butch” or dominant man – were to hit on them aggressively (there’s those flouted gender roles again) and doubly so if the aggressor were a trans woman. There’s a reason why “gay/trans panic” was considered a viable defense for murder, after all. And it’s worth noting that there were no state laws banning this until 2014 and most states haven’t passed laws prohibiting it, and there is still no federal law prohibiting it, despite having been proposed in 2018, 2019, 2021 and 2023.
And, I might add, being creeped on by a woman, even an attractive woman, is still deeply uncomfortable. It’s not about the fact that someone you’re uninterested in flirting or hitting on you, it’s about the continual disregard of your lack of interest and pushing against your boundaries. Especially if it’s at a time and place where you have to be mindful of how you respond.
But this disconnect isn’t what fuels the push towards aggressive tactics by folks and that gets exploited by people like Andrew Tate and his ilk. What actually fuels it is quite simple: equality. When women had to rely on men for literal survival, men didn’t have to work as hard to find relationships. When “good sex” was seen as a bonus for women but required for the men in their lives, being a good lover wasn’t as much of a concern for men as much as being a provider.
If one’s only choice is between potential poverty, homelessness and starvation and marriage, most people are eventually going to find someone to marry… even if that meant marrying someone you weren’t really that crazy about.
People often don’t realize that modern courtship as we know it didn’t really start until the 1900s, really didn’t come into vogue widely until after WWI and primarily a factor in urban areas at first before being spread via mass media and pop culture. So the “standards” and “traditions” that we currently hold to are barely 100 years old; the older ones are even more stringent and women had much less of a say in the matter than they do now.
It’s also very easy to forget that women didn’t have the full right to own their own finances or get a credit card until the Equal Credit Opportunity Act was passed in 1974 – that’s within Gen X’s lifetime.
Similarly, the advent of the no-fault divorce – which didn’t hit some states until 2010 – meant that women weren’t forced to stay in relationships if they didn’t want to, or that they had to jump through absurd legal hoops in order to “justify” ending it in a literally adversarial process.
Similarly, modern advances in birth control – and especially, birth control that women had access to and control over – meant that women had less risk for actually expressing and enjoying their sexuality and empowered them to have sex for pleasure in the same way that men do.
So, after several generations of courtship, where the rule was “you pretty much have to pick someone, so go for the least bad option”, women have increasingly had the ability to actually consider interests beyond “will I starve in the streets if I don’t get married?” and were able to be choosier in who they actually wanted to have a relationship with, who they might want to marry or if they wanted to marry at all.
And even then, the dynamics that shaped courtship and dating were still very much present. With the arc of history bending increasingly towards equity (including the various waves of the feminist movement, increased intersectionality with issues of class and race and so on), women have been progressively able to choose who they want to date, fuck and marry and on what terms.
Men, on the other hand, haven’t adjusted as well to this. Part of the struggle with toxic and restrictive ideas and rules regarding masculinity is adapting to these changes, and how many people haven’t adapted… and resent having to do so.
This isn’t terribly surprising if you really think about it. Gen X grew up in an era when Boomer culture was still very dominant; if it seems like we are way more familiar with older pop culture (by which I mean ranging from “Leave It To Beaver”, “Ozzy and Harriet” to “The Brady Bunch” and so on) than our younger peers, it’s because that was 90% of what pop culture was. We grew up being taught the rules of life from folks who came of age in the 50s and 60s, and much of the culture of the era reinforced those rules. So many, if not most Gen Xers and a sizable portion of elder Millennials were raised with social mores and rules that were codified a generation previously. Young Millennials and Gen Z are growing up in an era when those old ways have been changing… but Boomers and the people who benefited from the Boomer generation’s rules are still very much a dominant cultural and political force.
It’s worth noting how any of the various movements that supposedly exist to help men are, in fact, barely disguised attempts to reinforce old and outdated social mores. The Pick-Up community, evopsych, the Red Pill community, the “manosphere” and folks like Tate all dress old toxic ideas up in modern drag; if you actually examine what they endorse and teach, it’s very retrograde, 50s-esque gender and sexual roles and beliefs. Hell, the “tradwife” crowd doesn’t even bother with the pretense of being for the modern era. They claim to “RETVRN” to a 19th century by promoting a version that never existed (and certainly didn’t exist for anyone who wasn’t white and middle class) but that also rolls back the legal, social and economic progress that women’ve experienced in the last 120 years.
So much of why the male “rules” of courtship seem to be aggressive and counterproductive is because they’re still trying to fit 1950s rules into 21st century society. It’s tempting and alluring because it promises “simplicity” but also power and authority and the hallmarks of those restrictive ideas of what it means to be a man. So folks who may feel tension between the restrictive forms of masculinity and the more egalitarian and modern forms feel like they’re going to be given guaranteed rewards, while the more modern forms say “it’s going to take effort, it’s going to take work and you’re not guaranteed that you’re going to get the girl because girls have agency and choice too and you have to work with that.”
The simple appeal of both social power and approval by their peers and superiors (all male, natch) AND the promise of sex and the adoration of women for just existing is incredibly high. Especially if you’re already feeling awkward or unsure about yourself or confused by what can feel like conflicting messages.
And then they get pissed because the rewards they were promised for being men aren’t coming and certainly aren’t coming in the way they were told. And, in fact, they’re discovering that a lot of those old ways were actively harmful – not just for women, but for men and society in general.
Shit, that’s literally the underlying premise of Fight Club.
Now how do you navigate dating in the modern era? Well, you can hope and work for a completely egalitarian society where these double standards and expectations don’t exist, but you’re going to have to date in the world that is. And part of that is recognizing that while there’s risk involved that risk isn’t evenly distributed, nor are the consequences of it. And straight, cis men are much more insulated from those.
Part of it is going to be learning to read the room, understanding the people you want to date and learning how and where to find them. This means working on your social skills and social calibration, but also making are that you are able to take “no thank you” with grace. The “attention” that women complain about isn’t coming from men who hear “not interested” and say “no problem, have a good night”, or who are turned down by the friend they have a crush on and continue to be a friend, rather than making their hurt feelings her problem. It’s coming from guys who hear “no” and think that just means “keep going, I’ll give in eventually”.
Another part is getting a good idea of who you’re compatible with and making sure that you are compatible with them too. There’s a distinct difference between being attracted to somebody and actually being compatible with them, and a lot of guys fail because they don’t consider that part.
But just as important is learning how to communicate. All of dating is communication. Flirting is communication. Sex is communication. Relationships are communication. Much of what the most aggressive tactics come down to isn’t communication, it’s domination. It’s one-sided, “I demand, you give, I take”. Communication, by its very nature, is two-way, speaking but also listening. Not just hearing, listening, understanding and working within those understandings. The idea of “women don’t like male attention” is hearing, not listening. Listening is active, it requires paying attention and trying to understand. Sometimes what you think you hear isn’t what the other person is saying; in those moments, seeking clarity and understanding is important. And sometimes that means actively pursuing clarity and understanding yourself, instead of hoping other people are going to provide it for you.
And it’s worth noting that dating is a full-contact sport. There are no guarantees that you won’t get hurt. You may get your heart broken. You may get into a relationship that’s bad for you. You may date someone who is actually, actively dangerous. There are risks, as there are with any interaction between two or more people. The keys are understanding which risks are more likely and how to mitigate them, which risks are too much and which risks you’re willing to take on. If you drive, you risk injury and death. Driving is common, frequently encouraged (tacitly and explicitly) and treated as standard, but it’s not required. There’re lots of folks who choose not to drive, for many reasons, including not wanting to take on that risk. And that’s ok.
So it is with dating. There are risks. You have to decide if you’re ok with those risks. But there are rewards, too… and the only person who can decide if the rewards are worth the risk and the effort is you.
Good luck.
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